Photomator file format issue

[PSS]

I really wish SOMEBODY could help me out here, I have contacted support several times, no answer.
I just imported raw files into apple photos. I open those files in Photomator, they show up as raw, beautiful, I make adjustments, I copy the adjustments, I paste them to other files. in the browser those files still have the raw icon as well as the small pencil icon. I do not need my edits saved in a side car, so I have that option checked off. If I click on any of there raw files, they open in the preview view, all adjustments are zero'd (although they are clearly adapted) and. if I go to get info the file shows up as jepg.
I have made another post here about the same issue with TIFFs, once I work on TIFFs and make adjustments, the files are jpegs.
can somebody explain if this is normal, a bug? I am working with fuji GFX 100s files.

[Andrius]

Hi there, this is normal and there are a couple of reasons for it. Firstly, the RAW file format is read-only – the file itself cannot actually be modified in any way by any app. However, if edit information is stored in a sidecar file, then those edits can be loaded up together with the RAW. Secondly, the Photos library only accepts edited image content in JPEG format, so even when a format supports reading and writing (like TIFF), the edited version still has to be saved to Photos as a JPEG. When support for editing files stored in folders on your Mac or in iCloud/third-party storage providers comes to Photomator for Mac (in one of our next big updates), you'll be able to at least edit TIFFs and save them back to the same format without having to use the JPEG format. And on iOS, this is already possible. However, with RAWs, saving edits to the RAW without a sidecar is not possible from a purely technical standpoint.

[PSS]

so right now the only way to use Photomator on Mac and iPad using the apple photos library and iCloud sync is jpeg?
TIFF wont work because any adjustments made in Photomator will only produce a jpeg file because that is all apple allows 3rd party to work with (for now?)? raw files can be adjusted on iPad and Mac and synced using photos library and iCloud as long as the sidecar option is clicked on (on Mac and iOS)/ and those adjustments will only be stored as long as the sidecars are actually stored as well? deleting the sidecars will delete the adjustments?
please clarify, photometer is pretty great, I would love to use a iCloud sync workflow but I cant work with jpegs.
thank you!

[Andrius]

Yep, everything you wrote in your post is correct.

[Andrius]

Oh, and just to clarify, deleting the sidecars will delete the adjustment data, but the actual photo will remain adjusted because even with a sidecar, Photos needs to have the modified version of the images provided to it. So your Photos library has the RAW, the edited version (if the photo is edited), and then some information about the adjustments made to the photo (again, only if it's edited).

[PSS]

ok thank you!
right now 27 items, 5.5gb side car storage, not sure how that is doable in the long run. are these now synced to iCloud as well? that will eat into my allowance fast.
is there a way to get a TIFF workflow without sidecars? I dont mind destructive at all. or only when/if apple opens up the apple library to allow 3rd party to modify the original stored TIFFs?

[Andrius]

Oh wow, that's a lot for such a small number of files – are you using the Repair tool on each of those by any chance? As for iCloud storage, If you open Photomator > Settings > Editing and the location is set to iCloud, then yes.

For now, a TIFF workflow without sidecars is not possible, unfortunately. But when support for files is added, there may be some ways to have such a workflow (outside the Photos library, however).

[PSS]

Oh, and just to clarify, deleting the sidecars will delete the adjustment data, but the actual photo will remain adjusted because even with a sidecar, Photos needs to have the modified version of the images provided to it. So your Photos library has the RAW, the edited version (if the photo is edited), and then some information about the adjustments made to the photo (again, only if it's edited).

I dont think I understand.
how many files are actually in the iCloud photo library right now if I import a raw file into apple photos? 1 raw file. 1 preview (jpeg?) file?
once I open that raw file in Photomator, a sidecar file is created, so there are 3 files (or more?) I guess I dont understand what the "modified version of the images" is? what format? what format is the "edited version" stored as?
what format, how many files are the sidecar files? must be quite a lot since the size is considerable (about same as a 16bit TIFF?)

[PSS]

Oh wow, that's a lot for such a small number of files – are you using the Repair tool on each of those by any chance? As for iCloud storage, If you open Photomator > Settings > Editing and the location is set to iCloud, then yes.

For now, a TIFF workflow without sidecars is not possible, unfortunately. But when support for files is added, there may be some ways to have such a workflow (outside the Photos library, however).

no repair tool at all. 100mpix fuji GFX files.
if I work outside the photos library, I cant sync to iCloud which is why I want to use Photomator, the apple photos/iCloud integration.

so a TIFF workflow is more or less the same as a raw workflow, sidecars are necessary because the actual files are never touched. apple (right now?) does not allow it?

[Andrius]

When support for files comes, I think you'll be able to sync via iCloud as long as those images are in an iCloud folder somewhere. They won't sync to Photos, though, so I guess if you need that, that's going to be a dealbreaker.

no repair tool at all. 100mpix fuji GFX files.

Ah, those are pretty big I'd guess. What's the size of the original RAWs?

so a TIFF workflow is more or less the same as a raw workflow, sidecars are necessary because the actual files are never touched. apple (right now?) does not allow it?

If we're talking Photos library, the files can be opened, but edits will need to be saved in JPEG format, at least for now. I have no idea if this is on the roadmap for the Photos team, but we might be able to put in a request.

I dont think I understand.
how many files are actually in the iCloud photo library right now if I import a raw file into apple photos? 1 raw file. 1 preview (jpeg?) file?
once I open that raw file in Photomator, a sidecar file is created, so there are 3 files (or more?) I guess I dont understand what the "modified version of the images" is? what format? what format is the "edited version" stored as?
what format, how many files are the sidecar files? must be quite a lot since the size is considerable (about same as a 16bit TIFF?)

If you add a RAW photo to your library, there's going to be a RAW file and probably a sharable version of that asset too (in JPEG format). I'm not sure exactly how Apple calculates storage, but I guess it uses the size of the primary asset because there are actually some more potential images that can be tied to one asset (original/alternate (the RAW in a RAW+JPEG)/latest full-size version (edited or not)/unadjusted base photo). However, the only thing we do when saving edits is we give Photos the edited version and say – here, modify this asset with this photo. I'd be surprised if Photos counts all those other resources against your iCloud storage. It's possible, but I haven't personally looked into it and it seems unlikely. As for the sidecar, it's stored in Photomator format (the extension is .photo-edit). A sidecar is generally going to be about the same size as the original image (except with RAWs that have been edited with the Repair tool, in which case it's going to be about the same size as a 16-bit uncompressed TIFF). This lives outside your Photos library in iCloud or in your Pictures folder.

[PSS]

When support for files comes, I think you'll be able to sync via iCloud as long as those images are in an iCloud folder somewhere. They won't sync to Photos, though, so I guess if you need that, that's going to be a dealbreaker.



Ah, those are pretty big I'd guess. What's the size of the original RAWs?



If we're talking Photos library, the files can be opened, but edits will need to be saved in JPEG format, at least for now. I have no idea if this is on the roadmap for the Photos team, but we might be able to put in a request.



If you add a RAW photo to your library, there's going to be a RAW file and probably a sharable version of that asset too (in JPEG format). I'm not sure exactly how Apple calculates storage, but I guess it uses the size of the primary asset because there are actually some more potential images that can be tied to one asset (original/alternate (the RAW in a RAW+JPEG)/latest full-size version (edited or not)/unadjusted base photo). However, the only thing we do when saving edits is we give Photos the edited version and say – here, modify this asset with this photo. I'd be surprised if Photos counts all those other resources against your iCloud storage. It's possible, but I haven't personally looked into it and it seems unlikely. As for the sidecar, it's stored in Photomator format (the extension is .photo-edit). A sidecar is generally going to be about the same size as the original image (except with RAWs that have been edited with the Repair tool, in which case it's going to be about the same size as a 16-bit uncompressed TIFF). This lives outside your Photos library in iCloud or in your Pictures folder.

the raws are about 100mb apple cant read the compressed raw (which are about 25-50% smaller)
so the raw (TIFF) sidecar workflow still works between Mac and iPad but the files are stored outside photos library (but still in iCloud)?
now I know about the destructive really only works with jpeg workflow, I guess I will try and see how raw (or tiff) works in the longer run with iCloud storage.
btw: it would be great to implement a "edit in" workflow for other apps, a lot of PS plug ins and such now come as stand alone apps, that way PS round trip can really be avoided.
thank you!

[Samanta]

the raws are about 100mb apple cant read the compressed raw (which are about 25-50% smaller)
so the raw (TIFF) sidecar workflow still works between Mac and iPad but the files are stored outside photos library (but still in iCloud)?
now I know about the destructive really only works with jpeg workflow, I guess I will try and see how raw (or tiff) works in the longer run with iCloud storage.
btw: it would be great to implement a "edit in" workflow for other apps, a lot of PS plug ins and such now come as stand alone apps, that way PS round trip can really be avoided.
thank you!

The suggestion – noted. And, about the sidecar files – yes, they're stored outside the Photos library, in your iCloud.